30 years? Can anyone explain this?

iamasadlittleboy · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 4744

http://www.boxrec.com/title_search.php?title=NYSAC&division=Heavyweight&SUBMIT=Go

From 1938 to 1968 the title wasn't fought for? why was that?

Seer · Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 11684 Location: Alba

Wasn't the NY commission disbanded during those years?

iamasadlittleboy · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 4744

dont think so...
http://www.boxrec.com/title_search.php?title=NYSAC&division=Lightweight&SUBMIT=Go

proves that they still did fights at 135

gavpowell · Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 5290

I suspect it's to do with the rivalry between the NBA and the NYSAC at the time - most of the period in question has one fighter who's basically undisputed - Louis, then Marciano, Paterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier during Ali's suspension, by which time it becomes part of the WBC or similar.

That'll do til LondonRingRules tells us the real answer anyway...

tweetstreet · Joined: 08 Feb 2006 Posts: 1134 Location: Pembroke Dock

it did stop in 1938. something to do with the war maybe? Louis did see active service didn't he? perhaps it just wasn't re-continued after the war for some reason

im only speculating though

LondonRingRules · Posted: October 03 2008, 4:43 AM Post subject:

gavpowell wrote: I suspect it's to do with the rivalry between the NBA and the NYSAC at the time - most of the period in question has one fighter who's basically undisputed - Louis, then Marciano, Paterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier during Ali's suspension, by which time it becomes part of the WBC or similar.

That'll do til LondonRingRules tells us the real answer anyway...

----- Geez Gavvy, how old do you think I am?

All I know is boxing starts off poorly regulated and things never improve much for long. Can anyone name the first and last presidents of the colored and white heavyweight titles for example?

New York was a huge state by population and alternately banned and regulated boxing as per popular political sensibilities of the era. The notion of a unified champion is somewhat mythical. Even Sullivan's crown had to be consolidated, yet technically he never met his number one challenger, Peter Jackson, the commonwealth champ of a larger boxing nation!

Yeah, we have some periods where everyone seems to operate in lockstep, but now we have a WBC fight in Mississippi for example where they appoint separate judges which could have led to separate results where even the official results of the fight are in question much less the title.

Seer · Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 11684 Location: Alba

Starting to shape as though there may have been some kind of dispute between governing bodies.

A forerunner of the 'we don't recognise them' issues we have between some of the governing bodies of today.

Mind you, it could as easily been an agreement between them, "Ok, you have that weight, we'll have this one" as far as 'world' titles go.

Hell... Until we know for sure, one answer will lead to several more questions! :D

Orbtastic · Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 10690 Location: Yorkshire.

I do know the answer to this, but I forget it off the top of my head. I'd have to consult a few record books.

gavpowell · Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 5290

LondonRingRules wrote: gavpowell wrote: I suspect it's to do with the rivalry between the NBA and the NYSAC at the time - most of the period in question has one fighter who's basically undisputed - Louis, then Marciano, Paterson, Liston, Ali, Frazier during Ali's suspension, by which time it becomes part of the WBC or similar.

That'll do til LondonRingRules tells us the real answer anyway...

----- Geez Gavvy, how old do you think I am?

All I know is boxing starts off poorly regulated and things never improve much for long. Can anyone name the first and last presidents of the colored and white heavyweight titles for example?

New York was a huge state by population and alternately banned and regulated boxing as per popular political sensibilities of the era. The notion of a unified champion is somewhat mythical. Even Sullivan's crown had to be consolidated, yet technically he never met his number one challenger, Peter Jackson, the commonwealth champ of a larger boxing nation!

Yeah, we have some periods where everyone seems to operate in lockstep, but now we have a WBC fight in Mississippi for example where they appoint separate judges which could have led to separate results where even the official results of the fight are in question much less the title.

I was merely putting faith in your excellent knowledge of boxing history - guess that'll teach me ;)

Although in answer to your question, I've decided you're probably around your late 40s. Or 106. Definitely one of those.

McBride · Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 3699 Location: Spain.

Orbtastic wrote: I do know the answer to this, but I forget it off the top of my head. I'd have to consult a few record books.

I think you will find the answer in one of those encyclopedia type books by Harry Mullen, I've left them in the UK otherwise I would check it myself.

I am almost sure it had something to do with organised crime being highly influential in boxing in New York, so the NBA was formed, and as everyone has said it becomes a question of who accepts who.

Orbtastic · Joined: 21 Dec 2005 Posts: 10690 Location: Yorkshire.

The NBA became the WBA in the 60s, the first officially recognised sanctioning body.

Before then it was generally "world" or NBA or NYSAC.

The war put a lot of titles on hold, if not all of them. To sort of point to one fight between 41-45 (the montgomery one) is a bit misleading.

I think it's generally because the NBA and NYSAC stopped being so infantile in the period following the war and they generally recognised the same person, so the champ usually had a fairly clear lineage.

Boxrec is flawed in that way really - they recognise the "world" title, but yet don't list it, because they say it never existed.

McBride · Joined: 15 Sep 2006 Posts: 3699 Location: Spain.

Just to add to the mix, SRR fought twice in 1950, for something deemed to be the " Pennsilvenia State World Middleweight Title " having already fought for the World, NBA, and NYSAC world Welter title numerous times in the 40's. Hehehehe

gavpowell · Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 5290

McBride wrote: Just to add to the mix, SRR fought twice in 1950, for something deemed to be the " Pennsilvenia State World Middleweight Title " having already fought for the World, NBA, and NYSAC world Welter title numerous times in the 40's. Hehehehe

You know, it's funny, on all the Khan bills and other Warren shows I've always been waiting for the MC to slip up and go 'Commonwealth light heavyweight champion of the wooooorld"

iamasadlittleboy · Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 4744

McBride wrote: Just to add to the mix, SRR fought twice in 1950, for something deemed to be the " Pennsilvenia State World Middleweight Title " having already fought for the World, NBA, and NYSAC world Welter title numerous times in the 40's. Hehehehe

dont make it more difficult im wanting to track the heavyweight title from joe figg and work out where and why it split, every title fight (from english bare knuckle through to modern day)

every would be:
WBC/WBA/IBO/IBF/WBO/WBF/WBU/Linear/RING

gavpowell · Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 5290

WBS, IBC, IBU, WBE(now WPBF)...